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 Post subject: Hold All Bets - No Blackjack or Poker Anymore?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:21 pm 
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http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/lake ... 9dffc.html

Justices hear card counting case

INDIANAPOLIS | The Indiana Supreme Court heard oral arguments Tuesday in a case that could affect the casino industry in Northwest Indiana.

At issue was the question of whether Indiana casinos are allowed to kick out card counting blackjack players.

Thomas P. Donovan, of Indianapolis, was booted from Grand Victoria Casino in Rising Sun in 2006 for card counting: keeping track in his mind the cards that had already been played at the blackjack table and adjusting his bets based on which cards remained to be dealt.

Card counting is not illegal, but casinos don't like it. In this case, Grand Victoria Casino says so long as it isn't discriminating against a protected class of people, it should be allowed to kick out players like Donovan, or anyone else, just because it wants to.

"Common law says ... a proprietor can refuse to deal with anyone for any reason or no reason, so long as it is not a bad reason," said Peter Rusthoven, attorney for the casino.

But Donovan's attorney, Marc Sedwick, claimed that because the law establishing Indiana casinos says they were created to promote tourism and economic development, casinos are different from other businesses and should not be allowed to exclude skillful players who break no rules.

That argument seemed to resonate with Chief Justice Randall T. Shepard who admitted, like Donovan, he thinks through his bets when he plays blackjack.

"It seems to me that almost every player, in some way, on some basis, wants to do the same thing, just not as well as your client," Shepard said.

Grand Victoria's decision to exclude skillful players who win seemed to irk Justice Frank Sullivan Jr.

"Your casino could offer only games where nothing but pure chance governs, the slot machines, dice and the like," Sullivan said. "But your casino offers games where skill can be a factor, like blackjack and poker, in an effort to attract customers who think they have the requisite skill to win."

"But once you identify a customer who has the requisite skill to win, you pull the rug out from under them and say 'Sorry you can't play,' " Sullivan said.

John Thar, an attorney representing the Casino Association of Indiana, countered Sullivan's claim by arguing that because casinos deal with so many people and so much money on a daily basis, they need to be able to decide who to exclude on their own, because coming up with a complete list of reasons for when someone can be kicked out would be impossible.

In response, Sedwick pointed to the existing statute that says casinos can kick anyone out for any "lawful" reason. As Donovan was following all the casino rules, it was wrong for the casino to kick him out, he said.

Those rules could change depending on the outcome of this case. Several casinos asked the Indiana Gaming Commission to formally prohibit card counting in state casinos after the Indiana Court of Appeals ruled in favor of Donovan in October 2009.

Executive Director Ernie Yelton said the gaming commission will wait to see what the Indiana Supreme Court decides before considering those requests.

The court can rule at any time, but a decision is likely several months away.

Justice Robert D. Rucker, a Gary native, did not participate in oral arguments and will not vote on the outcome. The court did not say why Rucker is not participating.


Wow this is interesting! If it is found that kicking out skilled players is illegal it looks like the casinos will either need to eliminate those games or terminate operations. How long have I said not to count on that casino revenue stream being around?

Obviously if the courts rule that you cannot discriminate based on skill it will be like painting a big bullseye on Indiana casinos for skilled players all over long given the boot elsewhere for winning too much. I can't wait to see how this turns out!

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If you voted for the Dems don't be surprised when things don't turn out quite as you were led to expect. Some might call it pure Marxism. But the problem with Obama economics is there's not enough money in the world to make it work.


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 Post subject: Re: Hold All Bets - No Blackjack or Poker Anymore?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:42 am 
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I saw some interesting comments in the Times discussion section on this.

http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/lake ... e=comments

I wouldn't have considered playing with 5 decks as a solution. And limiting winnings to $500 or so also is another way to go. So I guess if the court rules against the casinos there are some other options available.

I appreciate the comment about too much government regulation but here it's slightly different. This case is due to unfair business practices. If you are a skilled player you're undesirable even though you've broken no law but nobody cares if you lose everything you own. So the house isn't counting on random chance. It is skilled at making sure you are probably gonna walk away with less money than you started with unless you're smart enough to walk out when you're ahead. But there's always tomorrow for you to lose it all back! ;)

_________________
If you voted for the Dems don't be surprised when things don't turn out quite as you were led to expect. Some might call it pure Marxism. But the problem with Obama economics is there's not enough money in the world to make it work.


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