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 Post subject: Re: Obama Will Ration Healthcare - A Matter of Life & Death
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:41 pm 
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Nobody (especially the government) should be allowed to set a maximum on how much a person can charge for their time and labor. The free market should dictate wages. If a lawyer thinks he can win a case and charge $5.00 and hour and then wins a case, that will be the prevailing wage. Same with doctors, nurses, garbage men, teachers, and WalMart greeters. I don't need a law to tell me how much I should pay for a certain service or commodity.

I'll decide that for myself, thank you very much.

:smt006

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 Post subject: Re: Obama Will Ration Healthcare - A Matter of Life & Death
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:06 am 
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Michael J. Fox? He has Parkinsons disease and has fought it long and hard. Shouldn't he quit wasting time and money and just die?

Patrick Swayze? He has cancer and has fought it long and hard. Shouldn't he quit wasting time and money and just die?

Should we have just pulled the plug on Christopher Reeve?...as the obedient do gooder liberal, I'm sure he'd have agreed to it right?

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 Post subject: Re: Obama Will Ration Healthcare - A Matter of Life & Death
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:07 am 
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Meanwhile....

Quote:

Prez and Pals Are In The Best of Health Care
New York Post, by Meghan Clyne


'THIS isn't about me," President Obama allows. "I have great health care." So the president should -- but Obama's checkups aren't the problem. It's the fact that our nation's entire political class lives in an alternative health-care universe -- and will do so even after the rest of us are stuck with the disaster of ObamaCare. Start with the top White House staffers, assistants to the president.


http://www.nypost.com/seven/07282009/ne ... 181741.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Obama Will Ration Healthcare - A Matter of Life & Death
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:47 am 
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Moby Grape wrote:

Should we have just pulled the plug on Christopher Reeve?...as the obedient do gooder liberal, I'm sure he'd have agreed to it right?



You know the MO with weak spineless liberal pussies......they love programs and giveaways that cost money, just so long as it ain't THEIR money......other peoples money. Well, they just as generous with lives and health....so long as it ain't their life and health.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Will Ration Healthcare - A Matter of Life & Death
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:43 am 
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Obama's approval numbers are falling, the pressure is rising and he's making mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Will Ration Healthcare - A Matter of Life & Death
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:42 pm 
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Rationing healthcare is murdering (shortening the life) the elderly.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Will Ration Healthcare - A Matter of Life & Death
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:07 pm 
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Public Oversight wrote:
Rationing healthcare is murdering (shortening the life) the elderly.



Well PO, there is a bright side.............the OLT540, bjqueen60438, and a few of these others mopes are elderly.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Will Ration Healthcare - A Matter of Life & Death
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:56 pm 
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The Obama healthcare campaign is not going well.

The liberals must have forgotten the Vietnam War demonstrations on a life and death issue.

Not Obama or Pelosi, but many Americans risked their life or died to give the demostrators the RIGHT to assemble, speak out and demonstrate.

Our most revered role models, George Washington and the founding fathers did far more than speak out in town hall meetings.

It is not merely our RIGHT but our DUTY to speak passionately for what we believe.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Will Ration Healthcare - A Matter of Life & Death
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:52 am 
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Trust the Government
by Newt Gingrich

08/12/2009

How much is one additional year of your life worth?

Or one more year of life for your father or your wife? For your child?

In Great Britain, the government has settled on a number: $45,000.

That’s how much a government commission with the Orwellian acronym NICE has decided British government-run health care will pay for one additional year of life for a British subject.

Think it could never happen here? Then you need to pay closer attention to what Washington is planning for your health care.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Will Ration Healthcare - A Matter of Life & Death
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:41 am 
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Public Oversight wrote:
Trust the Government
by Newt Gingrich

08/12/2009

How much is one additional year of your life worth?

Or one more year of life for your father or your wife? For your child?

In Great Britain, the government has settled on a number: $45,000.

That’s how much a government commission with the Orwellian acronym NICE has decided British government-run health care will pay for one additional year of life for a British subject.

Think it could never happen here? Then you need to pay closer attention to what Washington is planning for your health care.

This is just more fearmongering that is completely untrue. Notice how there are no links to Gingrich's statement or links to back up the claim? As Mattlap commented earlier, why do you people want to lie about the reasons for not reforming health care? The one fact that is true about healthcare in the US is if you have a chronic,treatable disease and no insurance, you will either die from that disease or you will left with staggering unpaid bills that will ruin you financially.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama Will Ration Healthcare - A Matter of Life & Death
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:56 am 
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sparks wrote:
Public Oversight wrote:
Trust the Government
by Newt Gingrich

08/12/2009

How much is one additional year of your life worth?

Or one more year of life for your father or your wife? For your child?

In Great Britain, the government has settled on a number: $45,000.

That’s how much a government commission with the Orwellian acronym NICE has decided British government-run health care will pay for one additional year of life for a British subject.

Think it could never happen here? Then you need to pay closer attention to what Washington is planning for your health care.

This is just more fearmongering that is completely untrue. Notice how there are no links to Gingrich's statement or links to back up the claim? As Mattlap commented earlier, why do you people want to lie about the reasons for not reforming health care? The one fact that is true about healthcare in the US is if you have a chronic,treatable disease and no insurance, you will either die from that disease or you will left with staggering unpaid bills that will ruin you financially.


citation = http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=33100

Your citation to disprove Gingrich?


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Will Ration Healthcare - A Matter of Life & Death
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:02 am 
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Public Oversight wrote:
sparks wrote:
Public Oversight wrote:
Trust the Government
by Newt Gingrich

08/12/2009

How much is one additional year of your life worth?

Or one more year of life for your father or your wife? For your child?

In Great Britain, the government has settled on a number: $45,000.

That’s how much a government commission with the Orwellian acronym NICE has decided British government-run health care will pay for one additional year of life for a British subject.

Think it could never happen here? Then you need to pay closer attention to what Washington is planning for your health care.

This is just more fearmongering that is completely untrue. Notice how there are no links to Gingrich's statement or links to back up the claim? As Mattlap commented earlier, why do you people want to lie about the reasons for not reforming health care? The one fact that is true about healthcare in the US is if you have a chronic,treatable disease and no insurance, you will either die from that disease or you will left with staggering unpaid bills that will ruin you financially.


citation = http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=33100

Your citation to disprove Gingrich?

Did you look at what you posted? It is nothing more that an ad to sell Newt's latest book. There isn't a single link that proves what Newt is claiming is true.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama Will Ration Healthcare - A Matter of Life & Death
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:44 am 
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sparks wrote:
Public Oversight wrote:
[citation = http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=33100

Your citation to disprove Gingrich?

Did you look at what you posted? It is nothing more that an ad to sell Newt's latest book. There isn't a single link that proves what Newt is claiming is true.


Sparks, you are not telling the truth.

Please stop attacking those that are trying to have an intelligent discussion about Obamacare. That seems to be the liberal strategy.

When I clicked on http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=33100

this well resoned argument against Obamacare came up:

Trust the Government
by Newt Gingrich

08/12/2009


How much is one additional year of your life worth?

Or one more year of life for your father or your wife? For your child?

In Great Britain, the government has settled on a number: $45,000.


That’s how much a government commission with the Orwellian acronym NICE has decided British government-run health care will pay for one additional year of life for a British subject.

Think it could never happen here? Then you need to pay closer attention to what Washington is planning for your health care.

British Government Bureaucrats Literally Decide if Your Life is Worth Living

The British single-payer bureaucrats arrived at the price of an additional year of life in the same way they decide how much health care all British people will get, through a formula called “quality-adjusted life years.”

That means that if you’re sick in Great Britain, government bureaucrats literally decide if your life is worth living and, if so, how much longer and at what cost.

If it’s more than $45,000, you’re out of luck.

A Well-Connected White House Advocate for Allocating Health Care Based on Perceived Societal Worth

In the highest levels of the Obama Administration there is a theory of how to ration health care that is troublingly reminiscent of the British system of “quality-adjusted life years.”

Dr. Ezekial Emanuel is a key health care advisor to President Obama and the brother of White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel. Earlier this year, Dr. Emanuel wrote an article that advocated what he called “the complete lives system” as a method for rationing health care. You can read it here.

The system advocated by Dr. Emanuel would allocate health care based on the government’s perception of the societal worth of the patients. Accordingly, the very young and the very old would receive less care since the former have received less societal investment and the latter have less left to contribute.

“Forstall[ing] the Concern that Disproportionate Amounts of Resources Will be Directed to Young People with Poor Prognosis”

“The Complete Lives System” would also consider the prognosis of the individual.

Quoting Dr. Emanuel: “A young person with a poor prognosis has had few life-years but lacks the potential to live a complete life. Considering prognosis forestalls the concern that disproportionately large amounts of resources will be directed to young people with poor prognosis.”

When fully implemented, Dr. Emanuel’s system, in his words, “produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.”

“Chances that are attenuated” is a nice way of saying the young and the old are considered less worthy of health care and, under this system, will get less.

Once Government Becomes the Provider of Health Care, Personal Decisions Become Public Decisions

The point is not that a health care rationing system like the one favored by Dr. Emmanuel will be implemented in the United States tomorrow.

The point is that, as in the British system, once government becomes the single payer or even the main payer of health care, what were once intensely personal decisions become public decisions. And as costs rise, government will look for ways to contain them.

The inevitable result of this pressure to control costs will be rationing, whether it occurs during this administration or the next. At some point, the government will be forced to deny care to those who don’t meet the latest “quality-adjusted life years” cost-benefit analysis.

So the decision on what treatment to pursue that once would have been made by you and your doctor is now made for you by a bureaucrat using a formula -- a formula to literally determine if your life is worth saving.

The Camel’s Nose Under the Tent of Health Care Rationing

Societies don’t arrive at this point overnight.

British health care was nationalized soon after World War II, but NICE, the health care rationing agency, wasn’t created until the late 1990s as a way to control costs.

Today NICE routinely denies Britons life-prolonging drugs that are deemed not “cost effective” -- drugs that are widely prescribed in America to treat cancer, Alzheimer’s disease and other serious conditions.

The result, studies show, is that Great Britain’s cancer survival rates are among the worst in Europe and lag behind the United States.

In America, Rationing Begins with Comparative Effectiveness Research (CER)

In our country, the road to dehumanizing, bureaucratic health care rationing begins with something called comparative effectiveness research (CER). It sounds completely innocent. In practice, CER means comparing different treatments for diseases to see which works best. And what doctor or patient would object to that, right?

The problem is that, in the context of a government-run health care system, comparative effectiveness research becomes a way to find a cheaper, one-size-fits-all approach to medicine that will limit health care choices for patients.

But don’t just take my word for it. Congressional Democrats included $1.1 billion in the Stimulus Bill for CER. Report language explaining the bill noted that the treatments found to be “more expensive” as result of the research “will no longer be prescribed” and that “guidelines” should be developed to manage doctors.

Congressional Democrats also killed several amendments to the current health care bill that would have prevented CER from being used to ration care. (To learn more about the common-sense amendments to the bill that have been blocked, click here).

The Government Has Determined You Must Take the Blue Pill

President Obama innocuously described the intended result of comparative effectiveness research like this: “If there’s a blue pill and a red pill, and the blue pill is half the price of the red pill and works just as well, why not pay half price for the thing that’s going to make you well?”

Listen to what the President is saying here. He’s saying that the government is capable of determining which pill works best for you and should therefore only pay for that pill.

But this one-size-fits-all approach goes against everything modern medicine is learning about the genetics of the human body. Different individuals and members of different ethnic and age groups respond differently to treatments. More and more, treatment of diseases like cancer is highly individualized and based on a genetic analysis of both the patient and her disease. Science is leading us in one direction and the administration and the Congress are taking us in the other.

What if you get sick and your doctor says you need the red pill, but the government has determined that the blue pill is what works best for its budget? In a single payer health world, what do you do then?

Creating a Commission to do the Dirty Work

Government bureaucrats limiting health care choices is terribly unpopular of course, which is why politicians use terms like “comparative effectiveness research” instead of “rationing.”

Another method Washington uses to avoid complicity in health care rationing is the creation of government boards or commissions -- like Britain’s NICE -- to do the job for them.

President Obama has expressed his support for using the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission (MedPAC), a commission created to advise Congress on Medicare, to achieve cost savings under health care reform.

Because the commission’s decisions could only be over-ridden by a joint resolution of Congress, it would be virtually unaccountable to the people -- and nervous members of Congress could blame the commission for unpopular decisions.

Combine this kind of a commission with the “complete lives system” advocated by White House health care advisor Dr. Ezekial Emanuel and you end up with a government rationing board literally determining which Americans should live and which should die.

Just Trust the Government

Supporters of government-run health care dismiss these worries as alarmist. They argue that because their big government health care bill doesn’t overtly call for rationing, it is somehow illegitimate to talk about this danger.

But it is always legitimate to consider the long-term consequences of a government program. By refusing to have an honest debate of this issue -- to explore honestly the consequences of the “painful choices” that all supporters of government health care say must be made -- their argument boils down to nothing more than this:

Trust the government.

Trust the politicians who are passing 1000-page bills they haven’t read.

Trust the leaders who are demonizing the citizens seeking to express their disagreement by calling them “un-American.”

Trust the advisors who advocate sacrificing the weak and the old and then hide in the shadows.

Trust the government to know what’s best for the most intimate, most personal part of you and your family’s life: your health.

Go ask a British citizen if it’s worth it.

To just shut up and trust the government.

Your friend,
Newt Gingrich


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 Post subject: Re: Obama Will Ration Healthcare - A Matter of Life & Death
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:59 am 
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Newt is nothing more than bald faced lying piece of crap.
Gullible, stupid, weak minded, ignorant cons like Public Oversight believe his nonsense.

Quote:
Gingrich backs Palin on "death panels"

It gets sillier: Now we have two potential candidates for the 2012 GOP presidential nomination, Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich, spewing the worst sort of lie about President Obama's health plan: That it will establish "death panels" to decide who deserves medical care and who deserves euthanasia.

Clearly the GOP has decided this issue is a winner. Older Americans are still more reliable voters than middle-aged and young voters, and Republicans are seeing political value in scaring them with threats of mandatory euthanasia and a Medicare collapse. It was amusing to see Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, no big Medicare proponent, warning hysterically Sunday that the Democrats want "a half-trillion dollars in Medicare cuts." This from the party that's also railing about how the Obama plan will add to the deficit, and is opposing every reasonable effort to curtail dangerously out-of-control healthcare costs, whether public or private.

On ABC's "This Week With George Stephanopolous," Gingrich was given a chance to reject Palin's false and vicious claims about "death panels." Part of me expected Gingrich to take that opportunity; whatever else he is, Gingrich doesn't seem demonstrably stupid, and the "death panel" rhetoric seemed beneath him. It also might have been a good way to distinguish himself from a possible 2012 rival.

Once again I gave too much credit even to a Republican I dislike. Gingrich declined Stephanopolous' generous offer, and instead allied himself with Palin's take on Obama's plan: “You're asking us to decide that the government is to be trusted ... You are asking us to trust turning power over to the government, when there are clearly people in American who believe in establishing euthanasia, including selective standards."

More than once Stephanopolous reminded Gingrich such language wasn't in the bill; the controversial passage pays for voluntary counseling on living wills and end-of-life care. That's voluntary, as in voluntary, as in you decide whether you want it. Also, your living will could say, keep me alive as long as possible, damn the cost. Oh, and did I mention it's voluntary?

A few days after publishing Stephen Pearlstein's excellent and sadly unusual takedown of GOP healthcare lies, the Washington Post apparently was striving for "balance" when it allowed "liberal" columnist Charles Lane to take up the Palin/Gingrich line, insisting he, too, worries that Obama's plan might push seniors unwillingly toward end-of-life decisions that hasten the end of life. Lane finds the voluntary counseling not entirely voluntary, because Medicare doctors will be encouraged to raise the issue themselves, not merely wait until a patient asks them about such assistance. "To me, 'purely voluntary' means 'not unless the patient requests one,'" Lane argues. Well, Chuck, to me purely voluntary means the patient is told of all his or her options, and is free to accept or decline.

What's rich about Lane's piece is that he ends it with a disclaimer that he thinks makes him look more reasonable, but in fact makes him look like the out-of-touch Beltway elitist that he is:

"As it happens, I have a living will and a durable power of attorney for health care. I'm glad I do. I drew them up based on publicly available medical information, in consultation with my family and a lawyer. No authority figure got paid by federal bean-counters to influence me. I have a hunch I'm not the only one who would rather do it that way."

Does the cosseted Chuck Lane really not understand that many Medicare recipients may not have access to costly lawyers and supportive, well-informed family members to help them with their living wills and durable power of attorney for healthcare? What a champion of the people.

This debate is getting dumber, not smarter. Although Obama already answered the "end of life" scare tactics once, he's going to have to do it again. I also think it's time for him to lay out his plan, exactly what he wants, and bring Democrats to heel. With Republican operatives and misinformed Americans shouting down the forces of reform at "town hells," it's going to take Obama's megaphone to cut through the lies, lay out what his plan would do, and remind people why they elected him: to make exactly the kind of change Palin and Gingrich are fighting with every lie necessary.


-- Joan Walsh

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 Post subject: Re: Obama Will Ration Healthcare - A Matter of Life & Death
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:20 am 
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edge540 wrote:
Newt is nothing more than bald faced lying piece of crap.
Gullible, stupid, weak minded, ignorant cons like Public Oversight believe his nonsense.



It's important to keep the debate civil and on-topic.

Personal attacks are an admission that you have no credible arguments and have lost the debate.


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